Does Batman Die

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Does Batman Die

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Each of the following Batman villains are given Death Notes. How do they each use them, and how does Batman respond?

The villains:

  • The Joker

  • Two-Face

  • Scarecrow

  • Bane

  • Killer Croc

  • Poison Ivy

  • Mr Freeze

  • The Riddler

  • Hugo Strange

The rules of the notebook, for those unaware:

  • The human whose name is written in this note will die.

  • The writer must picture the face of their victim while writing, or the note will have no effect. This is to prevent individuals who share the same name from being affected.

  • The death will take place 40 seconds after writing. In those 40 seconds, the writer can add extra details including the manner, time and location of the death.

  • If it is possible for the manner of death specified to occur, it will happen as written. If no manner of death is specified, or the specified death is impossible, the victim will die of a heart attack instead. All humans are considered to have the capacity for suicide.

  • If a time of death within 23 days is specified, it will happen as written. Otherwise, the death will take place after 40 seconds.

  • If it is possible for the death to occur at the specified location, it will happen as written. If no location is specified, or it is impossible for the victim to reach the specified location in time, they will die wherever they are at the time of death. If the manner of their death is tied to a specified location and that location is unreachable, the victim will die of a heart attack.

  • The writer can specify actions for the victim to take between the time of writing and their death. If it is possible for the victim to carry out these actions, they will do so. The victim cannot perform impossible actions such as revealing information they do not know.

  • The note can never cause the death of anybody whose name is not written in it. For example, if it is written that the victim will shoot an unnamed colleague, then their colleague's wounds are guaranteed to be non-fatal.

  • Once the victim's name is written in the note, nothing can be done to prevent their death, and they cannot die by any other means beforehand. If the same victim's name is written in multiple notes, the first death to be written will be the one that takes effect, regardless of the order the deaths are scheduled in.

  • Once dead, they can never come back to life.

There are also several Shinigami on hand, one for each notebook:

  • Any human with a note can trade half their remaining lifespan with a Shinigami for the Shinigami's eyes. These eyes allow them to see the name and lifespan of any human just by looking at their face.

  • Even with the eyes, a human cannot see the lifespan of a human with a note. This allows a human with both the note and the eyes to easily recognize other humans with notes.

BONUS ROUND: Ra'as al Ghul is also given a notebook. How screwed is the world? Can Batman stop him?

submitted by Azmek to whowouldwin
[link] [79 comments]

Posted on 13 December 2014

Does Batman's "no-kill" policy end up in more deaths (likely indirect) than if he had a strict, "at-your-discretion-only" kill policy?

This applies to all versions and universes, including both (or, all three, if you count Burton/Keaton as separate from the 90's abominations, which I do) movie universes.

Most people know that Batman has a strict rule to never kill any enemy, no matter what the circumstances are, as he's "no executioner" (at least, post-Golden Age of Batman around the late-1930s-early-40. During this point Batman was a badass who was closer to The Punisher than a ninja detective. He even used firearms, hanging criminals from his Bat-Plane, slicing them with swords, running them over with cars, throwing them off rooftops, slicing them with Batarangs, etc.).

Ironically, Batman had set up an automated protocol via satellite to kill any of his fellow superheroes in Justice League of America (JLA). JLA is pretty much the DC version of The Avengers, and it includes Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Lantern, and others. Batman set this up and tailored it specifically for each superhero -- which seems a little dark for me. So, you could argue that he has "planned" to kill superheroes on a more specific, drawn-out way than he has planned to kill villains.

Also, I think it's his no-kill policy that makes him so popular, since it shows humanity, discipline, and respect. The credit would at least partially go to the super-conservative moms in the late 1940s, who weren't fond of "this Batman character" wielding guns and killing people. So, DC immediately him (and Superman and everyone else from "Detective Comics"),

Here are the reasons for his no-kill policy:

  • This rule is rooted in mostly in principle -- to not "stoop down" to the level of those he's fighting -- which is why he also never uses a firearm, since it was the weapon used on his parents. (Nolan did a good job of catching the casual audience up to speed on his no-kill/no-gun policy, even though it took lucky timing by Falcone's hit-woman to "prevent" Bruce from using the gun, and it took a couple of slaps from Rachel to set him straight. My favorite part is when the Fatmans -- aka fake Batmans who happen to be fat -- use guns in the beginning of The Dark Knight, and Scarecrow says "that's not him" -- which is a sign of begrudging respect and acknowledgement). **

  • His rule is also based on fear**, fear of what he may become should he allow himself to kill, since it could be a slippery slope if he kills based on justification and "justice."

  • Lastly, he has the rule to limit the "heat" he gets from the Gotham Police, since killings -- even of high-level mobsters -- would be a homicide/murder case, since he's a vigilante and not a part of law enforcement. If he started to kill some villains, no matter how guilty the villains are/were, the killings would still be murder charges, and Batman would start to look more like a serial killer than a "guardian of the night."

But anyway, would Batman be a more effective and efficient superhero if he didn't have that rule?

Now, I'm not saying that his M.O. would be "kill all mobsters," or, in other words, it's not like Batman would be out hunting for people to kill.

My proposal/hypothetical would be: What if Batman allowed exceptions to his rule, where he deems that the benefits (immediate and permanent cessation of the near-certainty of further deaths, crime, and chaos) of killing of the villain would significantly outweigh the costs (costs being: slight loss of humanity, compromise of principle, added "heat" from cops, possible self-loathing from "stooping down" to the level of those he fights, etc.)?

Most of the time, Batman gets the job done without needing to kill, and I acknowledge that. Also, this wouldn't really be a personal code or a self-administered "license to kill" (i.e., "I am allowed to kill when justified"), but it would be an exception to his current code (i.e., "My code: I will not kill anyone. But in exceptional cases where it is the only option to prevent further deaths of Gotham citizens, I have to do my duty and ensure the safety of Gotham.")

There are instances where if he killed a villain who not only had already killed many citizens, but his eventual (and inevitable) "escape" from Batman would lead to more deaths. The Joker would be an obvious example, and he's pretty much takes advantage of Batman's rule, at times mocking him that Batman's persistent need for order can lead to collateral damage/deaths when it faces chaos (Joker). So, for example, if Batman actually breaks his rule and kills the Joker -- and it would NEVER be a situation where it would be an execution-style killing, but more likely self-defense or to thwart the villain from going through with a mass murder plan -- wouldn't it be fair to say that the good significantly outweighs the bad?

Take The Dark Knight for example.

If Batman had killed The Joker when The Joker was literally firing at him (though, likely not firing to kill Batman, since he didn't want Batman to die), with The Joker saying "hit me, come on, hit me, hit me, HIT ME!" (which, as I said, was an example of The Joker taking advantage of Batman's "one rule") he could have killed him WITH the police (especially Jim Gordon) witnessing The Joker firing at Batman. The Joker's death would have prevented plenty of deaths: the deaths at the precinct and holding cells (btw, how in the hell did The Joker survive all of that but no one else did?); any deaths from Batman's encounter at the unfinished condos; the turn of Harvey Dent into Two-Face, which resulted in more deaths, including his own; and finally, killing The Joker would have prevented that situation where two ferries with 600-700 people total were prepped with enough explosives to kill either and/or both ferries, and not only where they one click away from blowing themselves (or the others) up, but The Joker was literally about to blow them both up had he not asked (or mini-mologued, "speaking of which, do you want to know how I got these scars?", followed by Batman retorting with his own quip of "no, but I know how you got these!" and shooting out his arm blades and throwing him off the building, before, of course, saving him.

TL;DR -- Does Batman's strict no-kill policy inadvertently lead to more deaths than prevent deaths? It's not so much that I would advocate a "license to kill" mentality, but more of a "there's an exception to every rule" mentality, where exceptional circumstances call for exceptional measures. For e.g., in The Dark Knight, plenty of people died after Batman bailed on his Batpod with his chance to kill The Joker, who was a half-second button-press away from killing 600+ people on the two ferries.

submitted by Death_Star_ to AskScienceFiction
[link] [136 comments]

Posted on 11 November 2014

How the joker keeps coming back. [DC, Batman]

This is just another "what if" theory, and I'm not an avid batman fan to find facts to support the theories. Now in the batman universe, when Bruce Wayne dies or simply retires, another human fills his place by being batman (for example: Dick Grayson). What if the Joker also does this too? There were countless times the Joker went "missing" and he came back to fight the caped crusader. I think the Joker probably has his own little posse where he trains them to become like the Joker just like how Batman has his robins.

submitted by Randomthroawayacount to FanTheories
[link] [12 comments]

Posted on 2 September 2014

[DC] How does Batman not die when he fights with the JLA? (possible Man of Steel spoilers)

Okay, maybe the title maybe a poor question. I know Batman has all the toys, he is the World's greatest detective, he is as strong as the writer makes him and with prep can beat/survive against almost anyone right?

I just re-watched Man of Steel, how the hell could Batman even be involved with something like this? Metropolis was destroyed and Superman gets tossed around like a rag doll. I don't see how Batman would be of any help to the JLA if a threat stronger than that of General Zod were to attack Earth. Granted, this is a movie and a completely different universe. I'll admit I am a Marvel guy and don't know a whole lot about DC. I do know that Batman has varied from writer to writer and universe to universe in intellect and strength. It just seems to me that the only usefulness Batman could provide to the JLA s intellect and technology.

submitted by iisdmitch to AskScienceFiction
[link] [8 comments]

Posted on 12 August 2014

Plot Theories for Batman v Superman.

  1. Batman and Superman start out as friends. Why would they be enemies? They both fight for justice, they just do it indifferent ways. The only reason they will be fighting will be explained later.

  2. Batman nor Superman is the bad guy. My theory is Lex Luthor is the villain (he has been announced to be in the movie). He probably doesn't like Superman nor Batman. He sees that an easy way to get rid of Batman is for Superman to get rid of him, but he has to influence him to do so. I'm thinking Supes and Lex are friends or Lex got a hold of red kryptonite. (After the Man of Steel comes to his senses, he helps the Caped Crusader take on Lex).

  3. If theory 1 and 2 are true, any extra heroes in the film will be supporting Batman. If the two theories are false, then any extra hero could support anyone or be a "lone ranger." (Batman v Superman v Wonder Woman?)

  4. Batman is clever (as he usually is). When he prepares to go fight Superman, he knows he has no chance by himself so what does he do? He builds a suit that at least give him a chance at fighting the Man of Steel. (This has already been confirmed with the Comic Con Teaser Trailer.)

  5. The winner (if there really is one) will not kill the other character. Two reasons to this: One, you can't just kill Batman or Superman because their characters are too major, and two, when Supes kills Zod, he seems shaken, and probably made a vow to himself to never kill again (Batman also doesn't typically kill people, so Superman won't die either).

  6. At the end of the movie, Batman and Superman are friends. The title does end with Dawn of Justice, so at the end of the movie, we'll see an incomplete Justice League with Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman (and possibly Cyborg and Aquaman). This will lead up to filling the holes in the next movie with Green Lantern and the Flash (and possibly Cyborg and Aquaman; may or may not be introduced in BvS, and may or may not be introduced in the Justice League movie).

  7. A fight like this probably won't happen again. Superman is probably more conscious of his destructive capabilities and will try to control them, but when fighting someone that may be a match for you (like Batman in a strength-enhancing suit or Zod), it may be hard to control damage. I could definitely see some serious damage to cities (not on the scale of the last movie, but significant none the less) which would make the two heroes try to control or stop future fights with one another, with one and another hero, or between two other heroes.

  8. The movie is a chance to take superheroes that are typically considered lame, not major, or obscure and make them cool, major, and well-known. It would be a good move to bring in Aquaman for this exact reason. He is probably considered one of the lamest superheroes, but he can be one of the coolest ones if he is portrayed correctly.

EDIT: I've changed my mind about red kryptonite on number 2. Bringing in any sort of kryptonite into new Superman movies probably won't happen for a while because the lack of kryptonite makes the movie less predictable. However, I still think Lex will try to control Superman, Batman, or both.

submitted by MisterAnonymous2 to superman
[link] [16 comments]

Posted on 29 July 2014

Batman kills so many in the Burton films...

I was re watching the first two Burton films when I noticed Batman was pretty brutal in those films.

  • The First time was when Batman blew up the factory. There were at least 4 people standing around that car when his wheels dropped the bombs. Best part of all...Batman wasn't even in the car!! He practically droned them.

  • Batman chases the Joker up the church only to be met by one of his better henchman. They scrap it out for a bit and then he thinks he knocks Batman down the tower. When he goes to see if he's gone Batman pulls him down to his doom, the henchman seems to fall like almost endlessly. There was no way he could survive that.

  • The last person he killed on the first one was the Joker. When he tried to get away on a helicopter Batman attached him to a heavy gargoyle...now what did Batman possibly think this was going to do? In the comics he would of let him go to find him another day, but it seems like he was just not having it.

    • The beginning of the second movie there is a penguin henchman in a devil costume burning up stores. Batman with his batmobile drives in front him, does a 360, and then proceeds to catch him on fire with the back of his car!! If this man didn't die he had some serious done to all over his body.
  • Lastly Batman take a bomb from a henchman that he fights. He must of seen there was a lot of time still on it so he took it elsewhere. Batman then runs into this clown he can't knock out with his fist, so what does he do? He attaches the bomb to the man's stomach and throws him into a pit. The explosion coming from the pit was huge so nine times out of ten he died.

    Edit: This has been a really good discussion so far, but try not to downvote people for their opinions guys. Some people hate, like, and feel indifferent about the first two Burton films and that's ok, because in the end it's all about the Batmans. I just started this to see what other bat fans thought about them as well.

submitted by Pandorasbox64 to batman
[link] [95 comments]

Posted on 11 July 2014

Batman vs Light Yagami (Death Note)

Who would win if Bruce took the place of L in the anime?

Edit: This is Batman in the exact position L is in the anime, Batman is unknown to the world and is only known to the higher ups of the police department. He's called upon after all the criminals start to die, he's in complete secrecy. Light has absolutely 0 idea that Batman exists. How does Batman tackle this situation?

submitted by LittleMantis to whowouldwin
[link] [45 comments]

Posted on 12 May 2014

The Joker DOES have a superpower

No one could pull off half the random crap Joker does unassisted. All the near deaths, convoluted plots and inevitable escape attempts... impossible without some other force at work. But really, it's his name that gives it away. He's got a power any comedian, class clown or joker would kill for.

He has a supernaturally good sense of timing.

That's why all his schemes can work and why the only times he gets caught are when he can safely get away later. Because even if he's unaware that he's doing it, he's always in the right place at the right time.

Edit: Joker probably isn't aware he even has this power, but it's part of the reason he never gets over his insanity. Because everything always works out for him, he's never confronted with facing reality aside from the chaos he creates. Except... for... the Batman. Maybe he's immune or maybe he's just so organized he can cut through the chaos, but for whatever reason Batman's the only one who can overcome this subtle power. Joker may be aware of this subconsciously or just pick up that things go wrong whenever Batman's around, but he knows he NEEDS to kill him.

Edit 2: Maybe the Joker doesn't need to KILL Batman, but I think he does want some kind of final conflict where two enter and one leaves. Whether Joker hopes HE'LL die in the conflict or just prove that his reality is the correct one depends on which Joker you're talking about, I think.

submitted by Codoro to FanTheories
[link] [294 comments]

Posted on 14 April 2014

Scarecrow's bombs in Arkham Knight are a ploy

After years of plotting his revenge against Batman the Scarecrow returns in Arkham Knight to gather the other super-villains and crush the dark knight. At least, that's what we're led to believe. The opening trailer tells that the Scarecrow has planted fear gas bombs around Gotham and has told the authorities, who evacuate the citizens... But Why? In Batman's profile of Scarecrow and his interview tapes found in Arkham Asylum, Scarecrow is described as a man who must instill fear in others in the name of research. When Batman finds Scarecrow's boat in Arkham City, it does not contain a set of blueprints, some fear gas and a "I will have my revenge" sign. The boat contains the results of an experiment on an inmate. If Scarecrow is so obsessed with research, why would he tell authorities of his bombs and evacuate an unsuspecting test city of 6 million people? (I understand that this is a convenient way for the developers to explain why there are no civilians in the city, but Rocksteady is normally very good with covering up potential plot weak points). Scarecrow is too intelligent to think that a compilation of independent super-villains will kill Batman (he's defeated them before). Furthermore, Scarecrow understands that if Batman does die, the police and military will not respect the no killing rule when retaking the city. So if killing Batman is not main priority then what is? The answer is that Scarecrow is using the bombs and the battle to prepare the city to be a perfect fear laboratory. In the confusion he can send some of his henchmen down into the steam-works (disguised as trapped workers) to attach cans of fear gas to Gotham's water and gas lines as well as the air ducts of major buildings. Another group of henchmen can simultaneously break into city hall and forge records of these new "additions". Thus when Scarecrow is "defeated" or goes into hiding and the city returns to normal, he will have a perfect test city with which to conduct fear experiments in a controlled environment.

submitted by MrZartacla to FanTheories
[link] [5 comments]

Posted on 9 March 2014

What does r/Batman think of "The Batman" series from 2004?

I know that this series has mixed reviews from die hard Batman fans. However, for me, "The Batman" is what led me to my Batman obsession, and before it, and didn't care for him at all. I want to here other people's opinions on a series that wasn't always comic accurate, and that changed a lot of characters looks and personalities from their original persona.

submitted by gandhiloveslincoln to batman
[link] [12 comments]

Posted on 14 August 2013

A student in my online television class posted this as his introduction to the class...

I edited out his name only.

Hello, fellow students. My name is Anon, and I'm a guy - gender ambiguous names can sometimes lead to confusion on the internet, and I'm here to help you out! Go me. This is the second semester of my junior year as I study (wait for it) Literature and Film. It's a dead major now, but I still get to finish it. I can practically feel the luck spewing from my substantial collection of orifices. Now, I like to see myself as the embodiment of fun. I'm a fun guy. It's my thing. That's not to say that I do fun things (I don't), but that my very presence inspires joy in the hearts of other. However, as this is an online course, you will not get to feel that joy. Sorry. Not my problem. That's just how Zeus thought things needed to go. Lately I've been hooked on HBO's "Game of Thrones" series. I read the first book, watched the first season, and now I am watching the second season as I read the second book. It gives me the ability to point at what's happening on the screen and shout, "Nuh uh, Home Box Office! You're wrong!" Those instances are surprisingly few and far between: it's a very faithful adaptation, and it's lovingly made with what appears to be a very substantial budget. The first episode of the first season is a little rough around the edges, but things quickly get moving. You'll soon find yourself crying into your curtains after spending ten hours on the couch with an empty bag of Doritos in your lap.
While it was not purely a "television" moment, I seem to recall the Transformers film (not that Michael Bay travesty he made three times over with slightly different plots and slightly different explosions and slightly different lead women) being cut to run on cable television at some point in my childhood. I was a big fan of the animated series, so I was pretty much jumping out of my pants when it came time to watch a movie. A movie about robots that shoot at each other. I was, like, five (that was fifteen years ago - POP QUIZ: how old am I?). Do you not understand what a transformative experience this was about to be? No. You don't. And neither did I. About ten minutes in, Optimus Prime died. They killed him. The main character was dead, and we were only about a tenth of the way done with the movie. On the scale of things that are super-traumatic, that ranks just below your entire family being eaten by a chimera with dysentery. So, uh, since Optimus is kinda out of the picture , I think I'm going to go with Batman as my television character who I'd enjoy being. As far back as I can remember, there has been at least one Batman show on television, and Batman does not seems to die nearly as often as a certain 18-wheeling robot man.

submitted by ShakeNBakey to cringe
[link] [17 comments]

Posted on 7 January 2013

How long can Batman be Batman?

Though he is always the physical peak of health throughout his career, after a certain age there is no way he can keep up with guys much younger then him. When does he start being batman? How long is he batman until Robin # 1 shows up? And so on.

This the scenario that every major event in Batman history happens in one time line. Robin #1 becomes Nightwing, Robin 2 dies and comes back as the Redhood, Bane breaks his back, he joins the Justice league, ect.

In what conceivable time frame can batman still be a physical badass during all these events? Age takes it's toll on anyone, even Batman

At what age would Bruce be forced to admit his body is too old to keep up with much younger opponents?

submitted by hoffy87 to batman
[link] [26 comments]

Posted on 16 November 2012

The Dark Knight Analysis: The Joker's Plan (TDK From Joker's point of view)

Let me know what you guys think and you are more than welcome to correct me or ask for proof about anything. Thanks!

In Gotham City, an ordinary man lays low his entire life and fails to keep a criminal record or even a social security number, (probably born outside of a hospital). This man wanders the streets of the city randomly, probably homeless, and someway or another comes up with the theory that man is naturally evil; much like the theme of the book The Lord of the Flies by William Golding.

This man becomes so obsessed with the idea that he vows to prove his theory, using the citizens of Gotham City as his lab rats. He invents an alternative persona for himself so as not to attract unwanted attention while he is trying to prove his theory. The man dresses himself up like a clown and laughs maniacally whenever possible. He may or may not have caused the scars himself; we may never know. By creating this persona, he comes off as a "freak", allowing himself to not be seen as a real threat by the mob or the police or even Batman. They think of him as a joke and nickname him "Joker", however he never calls himself that.

Joker's first order of business is to teach the mob a lesson about greed and what being evil truly means. Joker robs their bank to get their attention. After Joker successfully drives away with bags of cash, he meets with the mob in order to make them a offer: He will kill the Batman and in return, wants half of the mob's money that their accountant Lau has hidden. They are interested but ultimately decline as Gambol announces that they are putting a large bounty on his head. The Joker is forced to flee and is now left with a problem: In order for him to successfully prove his theory, he must remain a "crazy nobody". But how would be accomplish this with a million dollar bounty on his head? Bounty hunters would start to take notice in him.

Anger at Gambol for declining his offer, the Joker immediately invades his hideout and slaughters him in front of his men. Before doing so however, the Joker tells a horrific but completely BS story about his father giving him scars.

The Joker uses this story as a scare tactic for the audience and for Gambol's men. At this point we think he is totally crazy, but his story was a complete lie as we find out later. Because of all the lies Joker tells in this masterpiece of a movie, one has to assume that everything the Joker says is a lie.

After Joker kills off the loose end, Gambol, he captures one of the "fake Batmans". Note that he is laughing maniacally in this video, putting on a show for the viewers. Joker hangs the fake's dead body from the city hall along with the footage that demands that Batman take off his mask and turn himself in or people will die. Joker didn't mean for the video to get posted to the media. Joker wants Batman to take off his mask because he believes that if he does, Batman will be much easier to corrupt; he wants to slowly break him down, starting with the physical mask that the Batman wears.

The Joker then poisons the police commissioner and kills a judge via car bomb. At the same time, Joker himself shows up at Bruce Wayne's party in order to locate and kill Harvey Dent, another target. After unsuccessfully finding Harvey and observing Batman jump out of a twenty story building in order to save Rachel, Joker leaves. Joker invades the parade in order to try to kill another target, the mayor, but is unsuccessful when Gordon blocks the bullet.

Watching the news the next night, the Joker is informed that Harvey Dent has revealed himself as the Batman and has turned himself in. Thinking this is true, The Joker gleefully blocks the convoy that is taking Dent to central holding with a burning firetruck. (Sidenote: the burning firetruck represents corruption. Just like a firetruck is suppose to fight fires and yet is on fire itself, Harvey is suppose to fight criminals, but ends up becoming one himself). Joker contacts Maroney and has his men capture Rachel and take her to a secret location. Joker then attempts to overtake the vehicle, hoping to capture and torture Harvey Dent/"Batman" in order to allow him to succumb to his evil side. However, as the Batmobile rolls up, Joker realizes that Harvey Dent is not the real Batman, but just another fake. Angry, Joker tries to shoot a rocket at the convoy that Harvey is in which Batman deflects costing him his tumbler.

Joker loses interest in Harvey's convoy and allows Maroney's men to capture him, while he pursues batman in his newly formed Batpod. However, things do not go according to plan when Batman grapples Joker's truck and turns it completely over. Luckily, Joker isn't seriously injured and stands in the way of Batman's oncoming cycle.

Now this scene is pretty damn interesting. Wanting to corrupt Batman more than anything, Joker doesn't move out of the way at all. Joker insists on corrupting Batman; if he were to hit him, Batman would have broken his one rule of killing. This also shows that Joker is not afraid to die if it means that his theory is proved. However, he is disappointed when Batman swerves in order to miss and crashes his bike. Due to the destruction of the Joker's truck, his plan cannot go on.

But please note, Joker never puts his life in danger during the course of this whole movie unless his death means he is corrupting someone.

Joker must have had a backup plan for if he ever got arrested or that was his original plan all along. Either way, Joker allows himself to get caught by the police. During the interrogation, the Joker admits that he is not afraid of Batman because he knows that Batman will not and can not kill him. He then reveals that both Rachel and Harvey have been captured and switches the addresses of each on purpose, knowing that Batman will go after Rachel as shown by the window incident earlier in the movie. In doing this, the Joker forces Batman to break his own rule and choose between Harvey and Rachel. He of course chooses Rachel and sends the police after Harvey. After Batman realizes the addresses have been switched, he pulls Harvey out of the explosion just in time, but Rachel isn't so lucky.

Joker allows Rachel to die, causing Harvey to go into depression and anger and falling deeper into his dark side. However, Batman is also effected by this incident but stays vigilant, making him the true hero.

Meanwhile, Joker escapes prison by effectively using the cellphone bomb he planted in a goon of his weeks before. He blows up the majority of the police station and captures Lau, bringing him to the mob. The Joker says "He is a man of his word" when he delivers Lau and the location of the money to the Chechen, implying that he had a seperate deal with the Chechen when Gambol wasn't around. The mob reward him with half of the money that Lau reveals, which he then burns. The irony of the situation is that Lau is on top of the burning money pile, and ultimately gets killed by the one thing he loves.

The Joker's entire motive for getting the money from the mob was to teach them a lesson about crime and what being a criminal really is. "It's not about the money, it's about sending a message," he says to himself.

He then wonders if he cut the Chechen up into little pieces how loyal a hungry dog really would be, strengthening his curiosity for the theory on whether or not man is truly evil. Joker inherits the dogs.

After realizing that Batman is almost unbreakable, Joker switches his full attention to Harvey Dent who is now in the hospital after his accident. In order to get some alone time with Harvey Dent, he clears out a hospital by threatening to blow it up and then sneaks in dressed as a nurse. During their alone time, the Joker gives a quite intelligent but bullshit monologue about how he doesn't have a plan and how he is just a dog chasing cars. He gives this speech in order to take the blame off of him for Rachel's murder. In order to seal the deal of corruption, Joker gives Harvey the choice to kill him, but is ultimately disappointed when Harvey doesn't pull the trigger. If Joker hadn't given his BS speech, Two face would blame him for the murder of Rachel and kill him for the wrong reasons: out of anger instead of out of corruption.

Note that Joker again puts his life at risk in order to corrupt a good person. Joker leaves and blows the hospital up as he goes.

Joker, content with the level of evil he has brought out of Harvey Dent, moves his focus to the rest of the citizens of Gotham. On the two ferries, he gives the citizens a choice whether or not to blow the other ferry up. However he is again disappointed when, at midnight, both ferries are still standing. He tries to destroy the ferries out of anger, but Batman knocks him off a skyscraper and he goes tumbling to his inevitable death. As he falls, he laughs, realizing that he has won and corrupted The Dark Knight by breaking his one rule. However Batman just in time grapples him back up to which the Joker stops laughing and says, "You truly are incorruptible". He reveals that Batman wasn't his main project and Batman quickly rushes to save Dent. However, it is too late and, while trying to kill a child, he falls to his death.

Batman and Gordon realize that the Joker has won and he has shown that even the best of men are truly evil on the inside. Gotham needed a hero, a White Knight, and that Knight had failed them, even going to the horrific lengths of almost murdering an innocent child. The Joker, a totally sane man, created a monster and psychopath.

The Joker proved his theory somewhat correct, not ALL men can be corrupted, but anyone can be.

TL;DR: The Joker successfully proves a theory that maybe not all men are evil, but some are. He had a plan.

submitted by AndyBerNardDawg to batman
[link] [58 comments]

Posted on 11 August 2012

The Joker's Two Scar Stories - and why THE DARK KNIGHT is the deepest film of the trilogy

EDIT2: (extremely mild )TDKR SPOILERS removed. SOME VERY LARGE SPOILERS IN THE THREADS BELOW. BEST POLICY - DON'T READ THE THREAD UNTIL SEEING TDKR

EDIT: There is some seriously amazing and insightful discussion going on in the comments. /r/batman may be my new favorite subreddit!

The Joker tells two different stories of how he got his scars in THE DARK KNIGHT. Why?

The first version is told to Gambol, the crime boss:

Wanna know how I got these scars? My father was a drinker and a fiend. And one night he goes off crazier than usual. Mommy gets the kitchen knife to defend herself. He doesn't like that. Not. One. Bit. So - me watching - he takes the knife to her, laughing while he does it! Turns to me, and he says, "Why so serious, son?" Comes at me with the knife... "Why so serious?" He sticks the blade in my mouth... "Let's put a smile on that face!" And... why so serious?

The second version is told to Rachel:

Oh, you look nervous. Is it the scars? Wanna know how I got 'em? C'mere, look at me. So, I had a wife, who was beautiful...like you, who tells me I worry too much, who tells me I oughta smile more, who gambles and gets in deep with the sharks… Hey. One day they carve her face. And we got no money for surgeries. She can't take it. I just want to see her smile again. Hmm? I just wanted to let her know that I don't care about the scars. So, I stick a razor in my mouth and do this... to myself. And you know what? She can't stand the sight of me! She leaves! Now I see the funny side. Now, I'm always smiling!

Why does the Joker tell two different, contradicting stories?


The most superficial interpretation is: the Joker is insane. He is so mentally ill he is incapable of being honest or consistent even with himself. So, the stories reflect Joker's mental turmoil.

Many audience members will not advance past this interpretation, and that's fine.


A related second answer would be that the Joker is a pathological liar. Throughout THE DARK KNIGHT the Joker manipulates his enemies through lies, trickery, disguises, and traps:

  1. The bank robbery and massive double-cross.
  2. Pretending to be dead to get inside Gambol's headquarters.
  3. "I just want my phone call" and the cellphone bomb.
  4. The Joker tells Batman the wrong location for Harvey and Rachel.
  5. It is heavily implied that the Joker is pulling a similar trick on the two ferries.
  6. Joker dresses as a guardsman to infiltrate the parade and shoot at the Mayor, and he sets up the sniper trap for Batman.
  7. He dresses as a nurse to infiltrate the hospital.
  8. He sends assassins to Judge Surillo who pretend to be her bodyguards.
  9. The pencil trick.

The two scar stories, then, can be seen as a continuation of the Joker's pattern of terrifying deceit and unpredictability.

Again, this interpretation is valid, and many viewers of THE DARK KNIGHT will not delve any deeper than this.


However, a third interpretation is the Joker is creating a self-conscious performance. The Joker always introduces his story with "Wanna know how I got these scars?" He is asking the question that everyone must be thinking when they look at his disfigured face, but nobody actually dares to ask. He asks it for them. It's important that he tells the story of an abusive father to Gambol, and the story of a neglectful wife when speaking to Rachel; he is clearly tailoring his story to his audience.

If we look closer, two themes unite the Joker's stories. In both stories, the Joker is the victim of physical or emotional abuse. The second theme is humor ("Why so serious" / "Let's put a smile on that face" / "Now I'm always smiling"). Humor is associated with insanity: people know that laughing when nothing is funny, or laughing uncontrollably, are symptoms of a madman.

The Joker is thus "reciting" a "myth" that people create in their own minds when they meet the Joker: the Joker must have been a victim of physical or emotional abuse, and the scars made him so detestably ugly that he went insane to cope.

This is a very unoriginal, vanilla origin story for a villain. BUT, in telling different variations on this same stereotypical story, the Joker is clearly winking at the audience. "So-and-so is what people THINK happened to me."

In reality, neither story is true. The Joker is not actually a laughing madman. He is often sarcastic and he has a sharp sense of humor (for example, he is clearly aware of how grotesque his nurse disguise is). But in many scenes, the Joker is serious and sober. Remember when the Joker escapes in the cop car with his head hanging out the window? Jack Nicholson and Mark Hamill would be laughing maniacally in this scene. Heath Ledger's Joker is silent.

The Joker does laugh several times in THE DARK KNIGHT, but it is a performance, like his clown makeup. The Joker laughs when he wants other people to think he is insane. The two clearest examples of this are when he is making his televised terrorist threat (interrogating the wanna-be Batman) and in his final conversation with Batman (while hanging upside down). Batman may be fooled, thinking Joker will "rot in a padded cell forever," but Nolan's Joker isn't insane. He rarely exhibits out-of-control, irrational, or impulsive behavior.

Just to drive this point home, the Joker even utters a sarcastic fake-laugh when he meets the mob ("Ha ha. Hee. Ho. And I thought MY jokes were bad."), clearly emphasizing how in-control he is. It is evident that his laugh while torturing the wanna-be Batman is just as much a performance.

The Joker uses storytelling to paint an image of himself as a madman, but he is really a mastermind.


In typical Nolan style, we can go even one level deeper.

A final interpretation of the Joker's stories is that the Joker is making a powerful comment on the DIFFERENCE between Joker and Batman.

If we look at Batman, his origin story is central. It is not just an explanation for his powers, like Peter Parker's radioactive spider or Superman's planet Krypton. Batman's origin story is his MOTIVATION for becoming Batman. Batman is not the result of a scientific experiment gone wrong, like the Hulk; Bruce Wayne made a conscious CHOICE to become Batman after his parents died. Batman's origin story is also the source of a painful tension in Bruce's character: his conflicting desires for revenge (violence and vigilantism) versus justice (law and order).

In short: Batman is defined by Bruce Wayne's past.

One of the themes of THE DARK KNIGHT is the contrast between the Batman's "one rule" (no killing) and the Joker's "no rules" attitude. A few lines in the film draw attention to this. Crime boss Maroni tells Batman that nobody will help him find the Joker: "You got rules. The Joker, he's got no rules. No one's gonna cross him to you." The Joker tells Batman: "You have all these rules and you think they'll save you…. The only sensible way to live in this world is without rules."

By telling conflicting stories of his origin, Joker draws a powerful contrast with Batman. Batman is defined (and limited) by his past. The Joker is free to invent his own past. Since he has no past, he has no motivation. As he tells Harvey: "Do I really look like a guy with a plan? … I just DO things. The Mob has plans. The cops have plans. Gordon's got plans. You know, they're schemers. Schemers trying to control their little worlds. I'm not a schemer. I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are."

In short, Joker is defined by his LACK OF a past.

Batman is scarred (psychologically) by his parents' death and he never forgets it. The Joker doesn't even bother to remember why he has scars.

The Joker uses people's pasts to manipulate them several times in THE DARK KNIGHT. At the most superficial level, Anna Ramirez is corrupted thanks to her mother's hospital bills. Going a little deeper, the Joker corrupts Harvey Dent by appealing to his lifelong appreciation for fairness (represented by the coin).

The person who has the most vulnerable past is Batman himself. The Joker is able to get the better of Batman several times because of this. First, the Joker forces Batman to crash his bike rather than violate his one rule. Then, the Joker is immune to Batman's beatings and intimidation because he knows Batman can't kill him. Ultimately, Joker tricks Batman into letting Rachel die by sneakily appealing to his secret love for her.


The Joker is a man without a past, and that's what makes him a terrifying villain.

It also makes THE DARK KNIGHT a complex, ambiguous, deep, and fascinating movie.

Not everyone analyzes movies to death, but classic movies grab our imaginations because they are open to interpretation, discussion and analysis. That's what makes THE DARK KNIGHT a classic.

submitted by Deggit to batman
[link] [393 comments]

Posted on 2 August 2012

(Lots o' Spoilers) How TDKR should have ended...

... exactly the way it did. I see some complaints that having Batman go out the way he did was a cop-out, and I find myself in total disagreement.

Here is a character, like every famed and beloved comic book hero, who is plagued by his total inability to change. It's written into his dna. Bruce Wayne never changes, he's Batman and he'll always be Batman. If other characters have to hate him for it, we'll draw our drama from that (Batman Beyond). But no matter what, Bruce Wayne is Batman. In no format have we ever been really allowed to see the Batman character realistically evolve, until now. And that is just as daring a move as the rather obvious and un-clever one a lot of us predicted. Some of us wanted Batman to die. Well, he does.

Batman dies. Nolan has said that TDKR draws a lot from Tale of Two Cities. When Gordon reads the last lines in front of Wayne's tombstone, I thought it was meant to mean that this man has died so that the city may live. It's almost the same thing as TDK, really. Batman just making more sacrifices to ensure the future of his city. But it's not about that. In Tale of Two Cities Carlton dies so that Darnay, a man that he believes has much more to live for, can survive. In this way Carlton feels that his life had meaning. Batman doesn't die for Gotham, he dies to save Bruce Wayne. It's a genius incorporation of a genius novel, and integrating it's themes into the themes of Batman is a brilliant conceit from the (sometimes maligned) script.

submitted by JackStolen to batman
[link] [87 comments]

Posted on 21 July 2012

Alright r/batman, would you be interested in a TDKR predictions poll?

My friends and I are planning on making a bunch of predictions for TDKR and putting some money on it. Then I thought, wouldn't it be great if /r/batman did the same thing? (No money of course). So how about it? I would totally be willing to create a Google doc or something, and then turn the data into graphs, charts, etc. /r/awake did this recently and I thought it was really cool.

If you're interested, upvote, comment, downvote, anything! I think this would be really interesting to get the predictions from the most knowledgeable Batman fans around. Also, let me know when you think the poll should be posted, closed, possible questions and answers, where the poll should be or anything else! (Date is important because more and more information is leaking out via trailers, leaked info, and cough action figures). It will also be interesting to see just how wrong (and right) our predictions are after the movie is out.

Possible Questions: 1. Does Batman die? A) If yes, then is he replaced? 2. Final scene? 3. Does Bane break Batman's back? 4. What is John Blake's role in the plot? 5. Does Ra's al Ghul come back, or is he simply in a flashback? 6. What is Miranda Tates role in the plot? (Love interest, Talia, other) 7. Does Anne Hathaway pull off her role as Catwoman? 8. How hyped is the movie to you? 9. Do you believe the movie will live up to the/your hype? 10. Will the movie receive any award nods? (Best film, directing, score, acting, effects, etc) 11. Do any other characters die? 12. Does scarecrow make an appearance? 13. When will you see the movie?

(Note: I tried to stray away from questions Nolan has officially denied, such as any Joker references. Also we want to prevent possible spoilers for twists people never thought about such as the new alleged toy spoiler, possible spoiler)

TL;DR I want to post a quick poll to get the community's predictions on TDKR, would you be interested?

edit: formatting/grammar

submitted by yoalan to batman
[link] [16 comments]

Posted on 21 June 2012

An Atheistic World Wouldn't Be a Better World, So Why Does it Matter if People Have False Beliefs?

 The main thing I hear from atheists is that they think theists are stupid in believing things 

that are clearly false and that their twisted logic brings down human society as a whole. The thing is, if there is no God or eternity or whatever after you die, (if atheists are right) then the time we spend on Earth is only as meaningful as we believe it is and the betterment of our species becomes completely subjective. What if I believe that if I perform enough acts of vigilantism during my mortal life then when I die my consciousness will live on forever with Batman in Gotham City. Who's to tell me I'm not entitled to my beliefs? And then as long as my beliefs and morals line up with what society agrees with everything is just fine.

submitted by turbo_tC to DebateAnAtheist
[link] [161 comments]

Posted on 14 January 2012

Anybody else think that the heavy hinting that Batman will die means he probably won't?

I mean, if he does die, then Christopher Nolan's practically already told us as much, what with images of the broken mask, the end of the prologue, the trailer in which Bane says, "When Gotham is in ashes, you will have my permission to die." I dunno, it just seems like a bit of a massive spoiler to give away several months before the film's released. Anybody else reckon Nolan's in the process of pulling off a massive bluff?

submitted by joebutters to movies
[link] [34 comments]

Posted on 15 December 2011

Someone stole an article I wrote about how awesome Batman is, and published it on "Yahoo contributor network" as his own. Reddit, should I even bother calling this guy on his shit?

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1229567/on_why_batman_is_the_greatest_person.html?cat=38

What's worse is, the guy used a really old draft, probably posted somewhere back in 2004ish. Current draft below, for comparison's sake, does having a .doc that's been copied around between hard drives multiple times really prove anything in this situation?

I thought it might be a laugh to write to him and Yahoo claiming that there's a $2,000 royalty fee on this article then just sit back and wait for the $ signs to come rolling in but beyond that I really wouldn't know if it's even worth pointing out to him that he's a shit for plagiarism, petty as it may be in this instance.


On why Batman is the greatest person, fictional or non, ever An urgent news bulletin

Batman. Even if you haven't read the comics, even if you haven't seen the movies, you know who he is. In a nutshell: Wears a scary as shit superhero costume, hangs out with the JLA, and beats suspects at roughly a Rodney King level of brutality. But what makes Batman more special than, say, not Batman?

He has no super powers

In your rush to assume that you were already up to speed with how Batman operates you may not have considered that he in fact possesses no super powers. So how does he do all of that amazing stuff? Simple, he trained long and hard for the majority of his childhood and all his adult life. Batman is trained in almost every conceivable art of fighting. Hell, he's even a ninja. And one thing that’s certain about ninjas is that they never, ever screw around. Unless you pay them specifically to screw around. Sure, it's easy to beat up your run-of-the-mill graverobbers and bootleggers and tubthumpers with ninja skills and gizmos, but then... Batman also beat up Superman. Yeah.

He can beat up fricking Superman

In Frank Miller’s Elseworlds tale 'The Dark Knight Returns', an aging Batman faces a bleak future where gangs of hooligans are killing in his name, getting about Gotham city with their violence and skateboards and varying rapster lingos.

Superman meanwhile has become the US Government's official lapdog, a strongarm enforcer of shady policy and the like. When Bruce Wayne once more decides to take on the mantle of the bat, political unrest sees the President send Superman after his old friend Bruce, with orders to stop him by any means. Of course, Superman knows that Batman will never be brought in alive, and so, of course, the two battle it out in an epic struggle punctuated by nuclear ICBMs raining down and snappy one-liners being tossed about in rapid fire succession as all hell breaks out around them.

It’s here that the veteran underdog’s heart begins to give, but it won’t quit on him before a final chance to wipe the shit-eating grin off Superman’s shit-enjoying face, pummeling Supes with a handy set of kryptonite gloves—engineered years ago for just such a contingency.

"You're beginning to get the idea, Clark. This is the end, for both of us. We could have changed the world. Now look at us. I've become a political liability, and you, you're a joke. I want you to remember, Clark... in all the years to come... in your most private moments... I want you to remember my hand at your throat... I want you to remember the one man who beat you..."

And then… Batman dies. Or does he? No. He totally fakes it. He rocks up six months later living under an assumed identity, teaching wayward street toughs how to fight crime. Just like Andy Kaufman.

He's the world's greatest detective

Batman's not just trained by the best fighters on this or any planet, but also the greatest criminologists and forensic psychologists. Bruce Wayne spent his adolescence travelling around the world, using his vast inherited wealth to study under skilled detectives and scholars of subterfuge. He learned about the criminal mind from the inside out by getting in amongst the seedier element of society on the ground floor of Gotham’s gritty underbelly—to observe, and acclimatize. Waiting for the moment when confidence and opportunity would align. Getting ready for a day when he could finally punch someone really fucking hard in the nutsack and then the face.

He recovered from a broken spine

When the super-criminal Bane busted all the inmates out of Gotham's Arkham Asylum, it fell upon Batman to round them all up. Each death at their hands was another for which he blamed himself. By the time that last mental case was recaptured, Batman was weak, exhausted, and just aching for a shit.

Only then did Bane strike, tracking Batman to his secret “bat’s cave”-themed lair, known as The Batcave, and with the aid of the super-steroid and sometime Spider-Man villain 'Venom', defeated the Dark Knight in hand-to-hand combat. Hoisting Batman high above his sizeable frame, Bane brought him down hard with a knee to the spine, fucking Batman’s shit all the way up to eleven.

Most people don't come back from a broken spine. There was, well, Bruce Lee, and that’s probably all. Therefore, while fictional, Batman remains the only living person who has recovered from a broken spine. It was a long, hard road back to good health and fighting form, but he returned triumphant, having sex with Bane’s sister and posting it on the internet.

He never loses

Batman is not only mentally and physically honed to perfection, but relentlessly driven by a score which can never be settled. When his parents were murdered in front of him as a boy, Bruce vowed to avenge their deaths with his indefinite war on crime. If he were to ever stop being the bat, he would be breaking that promise to his dead parents. If he were to lose, he would no longer be Batman. Therefore, Batman always wins. Physics.

He’s intimidating

Criminals are a cowardly and superstitious bunch, and thank God for small favors, as that cowardice manifests itself as a crippling fear of bats for an almost suspiciously high percentage of Gotham’s criminal underworld. Maybe the phobia of bats is a self-fulfilling prophecy, or maybe Bruce just got incredibly lucky, thanks to the environmental factors of a moderate climate and plentiful caves lining up perfectly with a population both enthralled and terrified by Sir David Attenborough’s recent, Bats: Nature’s Draculas.

He will haunt you

If by some miracle you thwart Batman, you will spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder. He will always find a way. The guy is literally insane, it’s not even worth the grief. While you’re busy sleeping and eating and shitting Batman is in a cave somewhere doing chin-ups while frowning at a computer printout of your face and current location. Oh yeah, and he only sleeps two hours a day. How? He’s fucking Batman.

He has a pretty expensive computer as well

In closing, Batman’s great. Just don’t screw with him. Don’t rob a Gotham bank or kill any prostitutes because Batman will be there to wreck your entire universe. It’s unclear where he stands on circumventing DRM or grey market imports but I personally wouldn’t take the risk. Batman will keep on fighting, and punching, and detecting the shit out of crimes, until the day he either dies, is replaced by someone with a scarier costumer, or resolves his numerous emotional issues.


Edit - Has been taken down by someone helpful in the thread, a lot of good advice handed out, and I'm glad for the feedback. This has been an overall positive experience, I appreciate you Reddit.

submitted by omasque to AskReddit
[link] [133 comments]

Posted on 7 December 2010